1 CITY OF JACKSONVILLE
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, October 6,
7 2009, commencing at 5:08 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 RAY HOLT, Chair.
WARREN JONES, Vice Chair.
14 REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
DANIEL DAVIS, Committee Member.
15 JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
STEPHEN JOOST, Committee Member.
16 DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
17
ALSO PRESENT:
18
GLORIOUS JOHNSON, City Council Member.
19 JOHN CRESCIMBENI, City Council Member.
BILL BISHOP, City Council Member.
20 JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
21 KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
22
MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
23 JESSICA STEPHENS, Legislative Assistant.
24 - - -
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 October 6, 2009 5:08 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, folks.
5 All right. I'll call us to order here.
6 Let's go ahead and go around the horn. There's
7 some new folks here tonight that may not know
8 everybody.
9 Can we introduce ourselves, starting with
10 Mr. Crofts.
11 MR. CROFTS: My name is John Crofts,
12 representing the Planning and Development
13 Department.
14 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
15 Development.
16 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
17 Development.
18 MR. HUXFORD: Folks Huxford, Planning and
19 Development.
20 MS. ELLER: Shannon Eller, General
21 Counsel's Office.
22 MS. JOHNSON: Councilwoman Glorious
23 Johnson.
24 MR. DAVIS: Daniel Davis, concerned
25 citizen.
Diane M.
Tropia,
3
1 MR. BROWN: Reginald Brown, District 10.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know why we do
3 this. We all have name tags, name plates.
4 Ray Holt, District 11.
5 MR. JONES: Warren Jones, District 9.
6 MR. JOOST: Stephen Joost, Group 3.
7 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, District 4.
8 MR. CRESCIMBENI: John Crescimbeni,
9 at-large, Group 2.
10 MR. BISHOP: Bill Bishop, interested
11 bystander.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. I like that.
13 Well, we've got an interesting agenda
14 tonight. I think most of the folks here are
15 probably here for the two bills regarding bus
16 shelters and signs and -- but I want to go ahead
17 and handle some of the other bills first to get
18 some of these folks out of here that don't want
19 to hang out for the whole sign issue, and also
20 give Councilmember Corrigan a chance to get
21 here. He's currently being honored by Florida
22 State College of
23 hard work over there. I don't know. We'll let
24 him tell us later.
25 All right. I promised Ms. Johnson that she
Diane M.
Tropia,
4
1 could go first.
2 What is that bill that you're here on, your
3 three bills?
4 MS. JOHNSON: It's on page 4, item 10.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Everybody, let's go to
6 page 4.
7 MS. JOHNSON: 10, 11, and 12.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: And we'll start with
9 item 10, 2009-515.
10 I need a move --
11 MR. JOOST: Move to withdraw.
12 MR. REDMAN: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I've got a motion and second
14 to withdraw.
15 Ms. Johnson, did you want to speak on
16 that?
17 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 This is in reference to all of the bills
19 that I'm asking to be withdrawn. It is -515,
20 -516, and -517. And I wanted to make this
21 public so that the people can understand why I
22 am withdrawing these three bills.
23 I know everybody in here has heard it. So
24 be patient, my colleagues.
25 On July 28, 2009, the above-listed
Diane M. Tropia,
5
1 ordinances was introduced to repeal the fees
2 imposed two years ago because of the hardship
3 that had -- they had created for a number of our
4 citizens who are already financially burdened to
5 the degree that day-to-day survival is a
6 struggle.
7 The fees imposed and the matter in which
8 they were imposed is, in fact, regressive
9 taxation with one franchise fee being collected
10 by JEA that has no connection to the services
11 they provide. The reality is that JEA has just
12 become the mechanism through which to collect
13 additional funding tagged as a franchise fee.
14 The need to implement the fees in the first
15 place, which was offered as a budget balancing
16 tool, could have been both avoided and addressed
17 by the administration and previous -- not you
18 all -- previous members, council members had
19 done their due diligence.
20 First, when the issue of property rollbacks
21 was initially entertained, I said we, as a
22 council, simply vote to opt out of the rollback,
23 which was the Senate mandate, which was our
24 legal right to do so.
25 Had we done that, property taxes would have
Diane M.
Tropia,
6
1 remained at the 9.2 mill mark. The council did
2 not entertain that possibility and, instead,
3 simply accepted the fees, which would ultimately
4 land on the backs of our citizens.
5 The fee imposed for sewer and waste water
6 was an opportunistic move to solve a very real
7 problem that had been left unaddressed for
8 decades by City officials. Had it been
9 addressed ten years ago, a revenue source could
10 have been identified and utilized and the
11 problems we are now trying to address with waste
12 water would not have reached the epic proportion
13 we ended up being faced with.
14 It had been my hope that a complete budget
15 review would have identified enough waste to
16 result in the cutbacks needed to allow the
17 burden of the fees to be lifted, and at the same
18 time, finding an appropriate revenue source for
19 sewer and water and waste water.
20 The Finance Committee was unable to come up
21 with the necessary cuts, and some of those
22 identified were put back into the budget. We
23 then find ourselves in the position of creating
24 a public uproar when the property tax rate was
25 raised to a level it would have remained at the
Diane M.
Tropia,
7
1 past two years had we done what we should --
2 should have, and opted out in the first place.
3 I am not for a minute satisfied that there
4 is no waste yet to be cut from the budget or
5 additional revenue sources to be identified, but
6 any cuts and a new revenue source will now have
7 to wait and -- at the next budgeting session.
8 Clearly the fees cannot be repealed at this
9 juncture. This does not mean this issue should
10 not again be revisited or that I do not intend
11 to do so. I do and I will return.
12 At this point, however, we have to address
13 the yearly billing system that was created to
14 collect these fees in a single amount. While
15 many may think the single billing of $120 is not
16 problematic, the reality is that it presents a
17 very real problem and difficulty to too many
18 people receiving it. That is proved by the
19 millions yet to be collected and is still owed
20 from previous billing of the fees.
21 We have not only created a substantial cost
22 through mailing and processing the billing for
23 fees, but we have created a system that does not
24 allow the people to pay in increments and make
25 partial payments, which for some is what must
Diane M. Tropia,
8
1 happen.
2 To make matters worse, we are now
3 discussing the use of collection agencies, an
4 additional sizable expense, and a move that --
5 which will put further stress on struggling
6 families through the administration's
7 collections effort. This I do not and will not
8 support.
9 It is absurd that this City has been
10 returning partial payments to citizens saying
11 they cannot process them and at the same time
12 are entertaining ways through which to pressure
13 their payment. For example, liens on citizens'
14 homes.
15 Certainly some mechanism can be put in
16 place to tweak the billing system to accept
17 partial payments. With an IT department which
18 receives millions from the City, they should be
19 tasked to create a system that will allow a
20 flexible payment system.
21 While these fees remain in force, we have
22 both the obligation and the moral responsibility
23 to work with the citizens we represent in a
24 manner that allows them to deal with the fee
25 payments as painless as possible by including
Diane M.
Tropia,
9
1 them in some other type of billing, perhaps
2 monthly, so that the City can collect and the
3 citizens can afford to pay.
4 That is my concern at this point in time.
5 The issue of fees and, as I call them,
6 taxes repeal will remain for another place and
7 time. These ordinances shall return in
8 preparation for the next budget period.
9 And I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing
10 me to explain why I am withdrawing these three
11 fees [sic].
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Johnson, for
14 your attendance tonight.
15 I have a motion and second on the
16 withdrawal.
17 Please open the ballot.
18 (Committee ballot opened.)
19 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
Diane M.
Tropia,
10
1 the vote.
2 (Committee ballot closed.)
3 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
5 withdrawn -515.
6 2009-516.
7 MR. JOOST: Move to withdraw.
8 MR. JONES: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and second
10 to withdraw -516.
11 Please open the ballot.
12 (Committee ballot opened.)
13 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
20 the vote.
21 (Committee ballot closed.)
22 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
24 withdrawn 2009-516.
25 MR. JOOST: Move to withdraw -517.
Diane M.
Tropia,
11
1 MR. JONES: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on -517.
3 Please open the ballot.
4 (Committee ballot opened.)
5 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
12 the vote.
13 (Committee ballot closed.)
14 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
16 withdrawn -517.
17 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Johnson.
19 Just a moment. Let me get my --
20 Steve, I'm having problems with my queue up
21 here. Hopefully nobody tried to speak because I
22 don't have a queue.
23 All right. Let's go back to page 2. All
24 those items on page 2 are deferred.
25 Item number 4, top of page 3, 2009-252. We
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 will open the public hearing.
2 We have Mr. Charles Mann.
3 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
4 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, members of the
5 committee, Charles Mann,
6 representing the landowner on this.
7 MR. JOOST: Questions only?
8 MR. MANN: Sir?
9 MR. JOOST: Questions only?
10 MR. MANN: Questions only.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Anybody have
12 questions for Mr. Mann? Raise your hand if you
13 do because I don't have a queue.
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: There we go. All right.
16 Thank you, Mr. Mann.
17 Seeing no questions, we'll close that
18 public hearing.
19 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
20 MR. JONES: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
22 on the amendment.
23 All in favor of the amendment signify by
24 saying aye.
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
2 passed the amendment.
3 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
4 MR. JONES: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and second
6 on the bill as amended.
7 Please open the ballot.
8 (Committee ballot opened.)
9 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
16 the vote.
17 (Committee ballot closed.)
18 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
20 passed 2009-252.
21 MR. MANN: Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Item number 5, 2009-350, we
23 will open the public hearing and continue that
24 public hearing, take no further action.
25 We're going to skip numbers 6 and 7 for
Diane M.
Tropia,
14
1 right now.
2 Go on to page 4, please. Item number 8,
3 2009-429. We'll open the public hearing.
4 No speakers, we'll take no further action
5 tonight.
6 Item number 4 is deferred.
7 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. -444 is
9 deferred.
10 We have just handled 10, 11, and 12.
11 Item number 13, 2009-526. We will open the
12 public hearing.
13 Continue that to 11/17 and take no further
14 action.
15 Item number 14, top of page 6, 2009-527.
16 We will open the public hearing.
17 Seeing no speakers, we will close the
18 public hearing.
19 MR. JOOST: Move the sub.
20 MR. JONES: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
22 on the sub.
23 All in favor of the sub signify by saying
24 aye.
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: We've passed the sub.
2 MR. DAVIS: Move to rerefer.
3 MR. JOOST: Second.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and second
5 to rerefer to LUZ as substituted.
6 Please open the ballot.
7 (Committee ballot opened.)
8 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
15 the vote.
16 (Committee ballot closed.)
17 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
19 rereferred as substituted.
20 Let's see.
21 MR. JOOST: -529, move to withdraw.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion --
23 MR. JONES: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: -- and second to withdraw
25 item 15.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
16
1 Please open the ballot.
2 (Committee ballot opened.)
3 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
10 the vote.
11 (Committee ballot closed.)
12 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
14 withdrawn -529.
15 Item 16 is deferred.
16 Item 17, -548, we'll open the public
17 hearing.
18 No speakers. We will take no further
19 action on that tonight.
20 Item 18, -627, we will open the public
21 hearing.
22 We have Mr. Fred De Witt.
23 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you here for questions
25 only, sir?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, I am.
2 Fred De Witt, 5658 Colcord Avenue.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for coming.
4 I don't see anybody needing to ask you a
5 question, so we will --
6 We are going to continue that public
7 hearing and -- is that right, Ms. Eller?
8 MR. CROFTS: We are going to close the
9 public hearing and then move the substitute and
10 move to rerefer.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Sorry. I've got
12 a bad copy here.
13 So we will close the public hearing.
14 MR. JOOST: Move the sub.
15 MR. JONES: Second.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
17 on the sub.
18 All in favor of the sub, please say aye.
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: The sub passes
21 MR. JOOST: Move to rerefer as substituted.
22 MR. DAVIS: Second.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second to
24 rerefer as substituted.
25 Please open the ballot.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 (Committee ballot opened.)
2 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
9 the vote.
10 (Committee ballot closed.)
11 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
13 subbed and rereferred 2009-627.
14 All right. Items 19 and 20, we will open
15 the public hearing.
16 Seeing no speakers, we will continue those
17 public hearings till 11/17.
18 Items 21 and 22 are together. We will open
19 the public hearing on those.
20 Seeing no speakers, we will continue those
21 public hearings until 11/17.
22 Items 23 and 24. We will open the public
23 hearings.
24 Seeing no speakers, we will continue the
25 public hearings till 11/17.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Items 25 and 26, we will open the public
2 hearing.
3 I have Jason Gabriel.
4 (Mr. Gabriel member approaches the podium.)
5 MR. GABRIEL: Good evening.
6 Jason Gabriel, 6 East Bay Street,
7 Suite 500, here on behalf of the applicant.
8 Just available for questions.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
10 Do we have any questions for Mr. Gabriel?
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 (Dr. Gaffney enters the proceedings.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing none, we
14 will close that public hearing.
15 Do I have a motion?
16 MR. JOOST: Move -661.
17 MR. JONES: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: And second on -661.
19 Please open the ballot.
20 (Committee ballot opened.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
4 the vote.
5 (Committee ballot closed.)
6 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
8 approved -661.
9 -662.
10 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
11 MR. JONES: Second.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
13 amendment for --
14 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: We did them together.
16 Motion and second on the amendment.
17 All in favor of the amendment signify by
18 saying aye.
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any opposed?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we've passed
23 the amendment.
24 MR. JONES: Move the bill as amended.
25 MR. JOOST: Second.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on the
2 bill.
3 MR. DAVIS: Mr. Chair.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis needs to speak.
5 MR. DAVIS: I'd just like to declare
6 ex-parte communication with the applicant.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: All righty. Thank you,
8 Mr. Davis.
9 Do we have a motion and second on that?
10 MR. JOOST: Yes.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Please open the
12 ballot.
13 (Committee ballot opened.)
14 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
18 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
22 the vote.
23 (Committee ballot closed.)
24 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 approved item 26, 2009-662.
2 Item 27, 2009-663, and -664. We will open
3 those public hearings.
4 And we have Mr. Dennis Lavery.
5 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: How you doing?
7 Dennis Lavery, 6607 Old Kings Road.
8 I'm here because I'm like a puppet. You
9 have -- you send me a letter because it's public
10 comments, 350 feet from this zoning. You tell
11 me to go at one o'clock to the eighth floor on
12 September 24th. I go up to the eighth floor,
13 sit there for a half hour. I have to leave work
14 early and it's the wrong floor.
15 I go to the desk. It's the first floor.
16 So I go down there, make a little stink. And
17 it's deferred to 11/7. So I'm sitting there and
18 then like, oh, it's a big joke. But I've got to
19 leave work, which you-all get paid for. I
20 don't.
21 But I'm courteous and I'm here again.
22 Five o'clock I was supposed to be here. It's
23 deferred again till 11/7.
24 Why can't you send me a letter when you
25 knew it last week that I don't have to be here
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 today and leave work again early to be here at
2 5 o'clock?
3 Just because this guy is wishy-washy,
4 backhands monies, or whatever is going on, why
5 can't we be informed, the neighbors that is
6 going to affect this? But he can go talk to
7 people. And the Planning and Zoning and
8 everybody else know about it before the citizens
9 that live right next to the area, that's bull.
10 Why can't we get informed like he does?
11 He's got it and then he says a snotty remark
12 when I walk by him? I wish I knew what he
13 said. This is bull. This has got to be
14 rezoned. Why can we be right now knowing what's
15 going on? Every time it's getting pushed back
16 and pushed back.
17 I'm not a puppet. I pay taxes. I want to
18 know what's going on. You put a road right
19 through my yard on one side of me. Now you want
20 to put whatever. And nobody is coming around
21 and telling us.
22 The grass grows high. I got to call the
23 City because of the branches and everything all
24 over my fence and I can't do nothing about it?
25 What about my rights? This ain't right, man.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 This is not right.
2 -663 bill is what I'm talking about.
3 What's this one about -664 now too? I'm going
4 to have to come back up when you pull that one
5 because I --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: They're companions, so we've
7 opened the public hearing for both. So go ahead
8 and say what you want to say there.
9 MR. LAVERY: Then what's the deal with
10 that? One is -663, one is -664. Nobody has
11 explained it to me what that's about. You know,
12 this guy just wants to build whatever and the
13 neighbors don't want it. I don't want it. You
14 put a road there. I have a road on the side of
15 me.
16 Nobody is coming around to the community.
17 It's just all wishy-washy and that's bull.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
19 Seeing no further speakers, we will
20 continue that public hearing till 11/17 and take
21 no further action.
22 All right. Top of page 10, items 29 and
23 30.
24 We will open the public hearing.
25 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mann, for questions
2 only?
3 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, Charles Mann, 165
4 Arlington Road, representing the landowner.
5 I'm here for questions only. I do need to
6 place one condition on this application when you
7 get through.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's see.
9 Well, we will close that public hearing.
10 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll move -665.
12 MR. JONES: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
14 on -665.
15 Seeing no speakers, please open the
16 ballot.
17 (Committee ballot opened.)
18 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
22 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 the vote.
2 (Committee ballot closed.)
3 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
5 approved -665.
6 -666.
7 Mr. Davis, did you need to speak?
8 MR. DAVIS: No.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Move the amendment.
10 MR. JONES: Move the amendment.
11 MR. JOOST: Second.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
13 on the amendment.
14 Mr. Crofts, could you give us the amendment
15 and see if Mr. Mann is okay with all that?
16 MR. CROFTS: I can read it in detail or I
17 can tell you in summarization that there are
18 seven conditions reflected in a letter to the
19 council president, September 24th.
20 The one change that I think will relate to
21 Mr. Mann's issue is that the -- the site plan,
22 the revised site plan for this particular
23 project is now dated October 5th, 2009.
24 And that would be the essence of my report
25 at this point, unless you want me to read
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 everything into the record.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
3 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, I don't think we
4 need to read everything. But for clarification
5 and working with the area councilman on this, in
6 addition to meeting the requirements of Part 12,
7 the landscape code, he additionally wanted palm
8 trees incorporated into the landscaping.
9 They're shown on the site plan that was
10 originally submitted. I don't believe they're
11 shown on the second one. And those would be six
12 cabbage palms planted along Dunn Avenue.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And you're okay with
14 all those conditions?
15 MR. MANN: Yes, sir, we are.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
17 Mr. Mann.
18 We have a motion and second on the
19 amendment.
20 All in favor of the amendment, please
21 signify by saying aye.
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Any opposed?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: You have approved the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 amendment.
2 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
3 MR. DAVIS: Second.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
5 bill as amended.
6 Please open the ballot.
7 (Committee ballot opened.)
8 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
12 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
16 the vote.
17 (Committee ballot closed.)
18 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
19 MR. MANN: Committee, thank you very much.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
21 approved -666 with palm trees, cabbage palms.
22 Item 31, 2009-667 and -668. We will open
23 those public hearings.
24 Seeing no speakers, we will take no further
25 action on that tonight. 11/17 will be the next
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
29
1 action.
2 2009-669 and -670. We will open that
3 public hearing.
4 We have Ms. Durden.
5 (Ms. Durden approaches the podium.)
6 MS. DURDEN: I started to hesitate back
7 there. I was like, he is going to call my name,
8 I think.
9 For the record, I'm Brenna Durden, Lewis,
10 Longman & Walker, 245 Riverside Avenue,
11 Suite 150, Jacksonville.
12 I'm here on behalf of the applicant,
13 Swisher International.
14 If there are any questions, I'm here to
15 answer those.
16 Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Seeing no
18 questions -- thank you, Ms. Durden, for coming
19 down -- we will close that public hearing.
20 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
21 MR. DAVIS: Second.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
23 on -669.
24 Please open the ballot.
25 (Committee ballot opened.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
5 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
9 the vote.
10 (Committee ballot closed.)
11 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
13 approved -669.
14 -670, we have an amendment.
15 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
16 MR. JONES: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
18 on the amendment on -670.
19 All in favor signify by saying aye.
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
22 approved the amendment.
23 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
24 MR. DAVIS: Second.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 on the bill as amended.
2 Please open the ballot.
3 (Committee ballot opened.)
4 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
8 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
12 the vote.
13 (Committee ballot closed.)
14 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
16 approved 2009-670.
17 Thank you, Ms. Durden.
18 Item 35, 2009-695. We will open that
19 public hearing.
20 Mr. Mann.
21 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
22 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, Charles Mann, 165
23 Arlington Road, representing the landowner.
24 For questions only.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 And by the way, we opened -695 and -696.
2 I'm sorry.
3 MR. MANN: No, sir, Mr. Chairman.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. -695.
5 No speakers. We will close the public
6 hearing.
7 We have an amendment.
8 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
9 MR. JONES: Second.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
11 amendment.
12 All in favor signify by saying aye.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
15 approved the amendment.
16 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
17 MR. JONES: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
19 bill as amended.
20 Please open the ballot.
21 (Committee ballot opened.)
22 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
5 the vote.
6 (Committee ballot closed.)
7 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
9 approved -695.
10 Thank you, Mr. Mann.
11 Are you also on -696?
12 MR. MANN: I'm through. Thank you very
13 much.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: 2009-696. We will open the
15 public hearing.
16 Ms. Johnston.
17 (Ms. Johnston approaches the podium.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: How are you this evening?
19 MS. JOHNSTON: I'm doing well. Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: How's the baby?
21 MS. JOHNSTON: She's doing very well.
22 She's teething. But other than that, she's
23 great.
24
25 on behalf of the applicant.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 I'm here to answer questions, and we are
2 agreeable to the conditions of the Planning
3 Department staff report.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no
5 speakers -- thank you, Ms. Johnston, for coming
6 down -- we'll close that public hearing.
7 We have an amendment.
8 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
9 MR. JONES: Second.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
11 on the amendment.
12 Would you like Mr. Crofts to read it?
13 MS. JOHNSTON: As long as it's the same as
14 Planning Commission, then we are good.
15 MR. CROFTS: There are no changes, for the
16 record, since the Planning Commission. And,
17 again, there are four conditions, in summary,
18 and they are dated in correspondence to this
19 body -- council body dated September 24, 2009.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. Did you say they
21 are the same as Planning Commission?
22 MR. CROFTS: They are identical to the
23 Planning Commission conditions, and there are
24 four of them. And they're summarized in a
25 letter dated September 24, 2009, to the City
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Council.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
3 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
4 MS. BROWN: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: We haven't voted on the
6 amendment yet.
7 MR. JOOST: Sorry.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on. Getting a little
9 ahead of ourselves.
10 All in favor of the amendment signify by
11 saying aye.
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
14 approved the amendment.
15 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
16 MR. JONES: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
18 bill as amended.
19 Please open the ballot.
20 (Committee ballot opened.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
4 the vote.
5 (Committee ballot closed.)
6 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
8 approved -696.
9 MS. JOHNSTON: Thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Top of page 12,
11 item 37, 2009-729, has been deferred.
12 -732, we will open the public hearing.
13 Mr. Harden.
14 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
15 MR. HARDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 Paul Harden, 501 Riverside Avenue.
17 I represent AFI Associates, who is the
18 developer of this property.
19 I'll be happy to answer any questions.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Seeing no questions,
21 we will close that public hearing.
22 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
23 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
25 bill.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Please open the ballot.
2 (Committee ballot opened.)
3 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
7 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
11 the vote.
12 (Committee ballot closed.)
13 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
15 approved -732.
16 Let's see. 2009-750, -752, -753, all of
17 page 13, they are all second and referred.
18 Now let's go back to our big items of the
19 night.
20 We did our best to hold off until
21 Mr. Corrigan could be here, but let's go ahead
22 and get them started.
23 2009-401.
24 Mr. Crofts, could you start us off on this
25 whole process by kind of framing it? Tell us
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
38
1 maybe what happened over at Planning Commission.
2 MR. CROFTS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to
3 yield the floor to Mr. Kelly, who has invested a
4 great deal of time on this particular project.
5 And representing the Planning and Development
6 Department, he'll go into the staff's position
7 on this bill.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
9 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
10 Through the Chair to the members of the
11 committee, 2009-401 seeks to allow for the --
12 transit shelter advertising within the public
13 right-of-way. This has really been a kind of
14 polarizing issue with clear lines on both sides,
15 and the Department would like to kind of go over
16 how we arrived at our policy decision in support
17 of this change to the zoning code.
18 Specifically, there's three reasons that we
19 looked at this. One was consistency with
20 existing statutes. That includes the state
21 statute as well as our comprehensive plan.
22 Additionally, we evaluated this bill based
23 on the siting and design criteria for improving
24 the aesthetics to ensure compatibility with
25 adjacent zoning districts, as well as for
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 transit shelters in the downtown.
2 And third, we drew a correlation in how we
3 tied this legislation into the overall public
4 benefit.
5 I want to go into each of these a little
6 bit.
7 Specifically, the Florida Statutes,
8 Section 337.408, this states that transit
9 shelters, including advertising displayed on
10 benches or transit shelters, may be installed
11 within the right-of-way limits of any municipal
12 county or state road, provided that such benches
13 or transit shelters are for the comfort or
14 convenience of the general public or at designed
15 stops on official bus routes.
16 Additionally, goal 6 of our comprehensive
17 plan goes on to state that it is the intent to
18 promote the economic viability of transit. It
19 states that the economic efficiency of the
20 transit system shall be maximized while
21 providing for basic transportation needs of the
22 transit-dependent.
23 In order to promote the economic health of
24 Jacksonville, the transit system should operate
25 at a high level of efficiency and effectiveness,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 provide a reasonable level of service to its
2 patrons, and to maximize opportunities for
3 private sector investments in the development of
4 transit facilities and utilize all available
5 means of fund [sic].
6 Furthermore, a more specific objective in
7 the comp plan further states that the
8 transportation authority shall utilize, to the
9 extent allowed by law, existing and federal,
10 state and local funding mechanisms established
11 to support transit systems in the city.
12 There's been a lot of talk about whether or
13 not this is going to result in the overturning
14 of the City charter. The charter is very
15 specific. Article 23, Section 23.02, actually
16 defined what an off-site commercial billboard
17 is.
18 And in this bill -- in the charter, it
19 specifically states that any sign that
20 advertises or identifies a commercial use or
21 product that is not sold or produced on the
22 property on which the sign is located and which
23 is more than 25 square feet in size defines a
24 commercial off-site billboard. All the transit
25 shelter advertising signage is less than
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 25 square feet.
2 So, to summarize, the state statute allows
3 for the transit shelter advertising in the
4 right-of-way. The comprehensive plan requires
5 that the City look at all available funding
6 mechanisms to improve transit services for the
7 transit-dependent. The City charter defines
8 off-site commercial billboards and specifically
9 excludes signs that are less than 25 feet from
10 the definition.
11 Additionally, since the adoption of the
12 charter, there's been similar legislation with
13 sign overlays, specifically downtown, in
14 ordinance 2005-1380 that dealt with the existing
15 severability clause that's provided for in this
16 bill.
17 That severability clause has existed and
18 has not been challenged for four years. It
19 allowed for the off-site signage within the
20 sporting venues and the arenas and the ball
21 parks.
22 So, from a legal standpoint, the Department
23 is comfortable. We've relied on the Office of
24 General Counsel and their opinion. So we feel
25 very satisfied with that and with the laws and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 with the policies that we have, that this is --
2 this is a good thing.
3 The second issue specifically we looked at
4 this was siting and design criteria, and so we
5 looked at this and we initiated a review that
6 basically provided a locational criteria for the
7 transit shelters that's based on the surrounding
8 land use and zoning as to where a transit
9 shelter with internally-illuminated advertising
10 could be permitted by right, where it is
11 permissible, provided that it would comply with
12 specific performance standards, specifically a
13 200-foot setback from a single-family use, and
14 the fact that it would have to be identified on
15 the JTA bus corridor route map, and also where
16 it would be allowed only through the grant of a
17 sign waiver.
18 Sign waivers typically come through this
19 body for approval, so -- requiring an individual
20 public hearing to allow a transit shelter with
21 advertising in those situations should they
22 arise.
23 Additionally, the legislation very
24 specifically amended the downtown zoning overlay
25 with regards to the streetscape standards,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 again, for providing specific siting and design
2 criteria located for the transit shelters in the
3 downtown, and also provided a review for the
4 transit shelter locations and designs of those
5 transit shelters within the historic districts.
6 I believe there's a substitute that will be
7 before you, and I can speak to that, but that
8 can come later. I think Councilman Corrigan
9 would want to be here.
10 The third thing, public benefit, tying it
11 all back together. This transit shelter
12 advertising legislation will result in the
13 creation of 50 new transit shelters being
14 constructed per year, a total of 750 shelters in
15 15 years, including all maintenance. This
16 equates to approximately $14 million or
17 $1 million per year for the transit-dependent
18 citizens of Jacksonville at no cost to the
19 taxpayer. Transit shelter construction with
20 advertising is proposed on the designated bus
21 routes and select corridors.
22 And, additionally, the legislation provides
23 for a reporting requirement for JTA to come back
24 to the City Council every year to demonstrate
25 that the transit shelters that are being
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 constructed with the advertising are being
2 constructed based on actual ridership demand and
3 special needs of the riders in those areas,
4 so --
5 The Department, you know, recognizes both
6 sides of this issue. And, clearly, based on the
7 existing comprehensive plan and the laws that we
8 have in place, we are very supportive of this
9 legislation.
10 Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Inaudible.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry?
14 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Inaudible.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure, go ahead.
16 We have a question from Mr. Crescimbeni.
17 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Chairman, through the
18 Chair to Mr. Kelly.
19 Mr. Kelly, the 50 shelters per year, 750
20 total, what page is that on?
21 MR. KELLY: The number was given to me from
22 JTA based on the anticipated number of shelters
23 per year that could be built and maintained by
24 the commercial --
25 MR. CRESCIMBENI: So that's not in the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 ordinance?
2 MR. KELLY: No, it isn't.
3 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Could it be less than
4 that?
5 MR. KELLY: Of course it could, yes.
6 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, sir.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaffney, do you have a
8 question for Mr. Kelly?
9 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes. One quick question
10 here.
11 Now, is this something we -- the Corrigan
12 bill, with the historical areas, is this
13 something that we're going to take up right now,
14 or is this something later? Because I wanted to
15 also have Springfield added to exclude it.
16 MR. KELLY: It is my understanding that
17 there's a substitute that's going to be --
18 that's on the floor for this committee that
19 basically would exempt out the Riverside
20 Avondale zoning overlay.
21 And in your packages at your desk, I handed
22 out a letter from the Historic Preservation
23 Commission, from the Springfield SPAR group that
24 would also like to be --
25 DR. GAFFNEY: Yeah, I want them added.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's get into those issues
2 when we get to the sub.
3 Let's go ahead and open the public hearing.
4 If there's anybody who has -- who wants to
5 speak, has not submitted a blue card, please go
6 ahead and do that.
7 We're going to start with Mr. David Cohen,
8 unless you guys want to flip-flop around. I've
9 got Mr. Blaylock and Mr. Miller as well.
10 Whoever wants to go first.
11 (Mr. Cohen approaches the podium.)
12 MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.
13 Councilman Holt, if we could switch the
14 order on you a little bit.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
16 MR. COHEN: I think Mr. Blaylock would like
17 to lead off, and I know Mr. Miller has a handout
18 for you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. There's only three.
20 So whatever order you want to go in, fine by me.
21 (Mr. Blaylock approaches the podium.)
22 MR. BLAYLOCK: Good afternoon. I'll be
23 very brief.
24 Michael Blaylock, executive director for
25 Jacksonville Transportation Authority, 100 North
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1 Myrtle Avenue, Jacksonville, Florida.
2 I think the issue is that the Authority has
3 worked very diligently with the different
4 entities. The Planning Department -- we have
5 incorporated recommendations from the Planning
6 Department. We have met with the JEDC. We have
7 incorporated recommendations from the JEDC.
8 We have also embraced the recommendation
9 from Councilman Corrigan and Dr. Gaffney with
10 respect to the historic districts in that we
11 would not provide shelters with advertising in
12 those districts.
13 We have worked very hard to try to get this
14 question called because out of the approximately
15 6,000 shelters [sic] that we have on the street,
16 there is less than 10 percent of -- are provided
17 with covered shelters.
18 The other part of the equation is that --
19 as I have indicated, that we have spoken with
20 all these other entities. The people that
21 really matter have spoken and have spoken very
22 clearly, and that is that they want more
23 shelters, more rapidly, as soon as possible.
24 The board of directors have charged us
25 with, whenever there is an opportunity to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 acquire funding from private sources for public
2 benefit, then we should take advantage of it.
3 And this is just a drop in the bucket in terms
4 of a contribution from the private sector.
5 And our issue is quite -- we're not in the
6 business of advertising, if you will, but we
7 have entities that will be interested in
8 providing shelters at no cost to this Authority
9 based on our design, prescribed designs,
10 location placements, as well as maintaining
11 those shelters, which is really the biggest
12 issue that we face, the reoccurring cost for
13 maintaining the shelters.
14 We have a number of shelters that have to
15 be cleaned as much as two and three times a
16 week. It's an enormous expense. We're
17 somewhere around $400,000 that we're spending
18 now. And even on the current plan, the 50
19 shelters a year is just a minimal. It's a
20 baseline.
21 But we have already committed that in
22 addition to the 50, we're going to continue to
23 add 20 -- at least 20 to 30 shelters a year, of
24 which we would have to still maintain the
25 maintenance cost. But by shifting that cost to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 the private sector, then that reduces the burden
2 on our sales tax dollars.
3 So I'm just asking that the council will
4 support bill number 2009-401 for the people that
5 it really does matter in terms of the protection
6 from the elements. It's that simple.
7 So I will answer any questions if you have
8 any.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions for
10 Mr. Blaylock?
11 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Indicating.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crescimbeni.
13 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Chairman, I have some
14 questions. But if you would prefer, if it would
15 be easier, I'll wait till everybody speaks, and
16 then -- if you'll just allow them to come back
17 up to the podium.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: If it's a question for
19 Mr. Blaylock, you can get it now or --
20 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. I mean, I just --
21 I wanted to -- didn't want to disrupt your
22 pattern.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: No.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Thank you, sir.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Blaylock, thank you
2 for being here tonight.
3 You said 6,000 shelters, but I think you
4 meant 6,000 stops.
5 MR. BLAYLOCK: I'm sorry. Thank you, sir.
6 Thank you for correcting me.
7 Six thousand bus stops.
8 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Right.
9 If we had 6,000 shelters, we'd be in great
10 shape --
11 MR. BLAYLOCK: Isn't that wonderful?
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: -- wouldn't we?
13 MR. BLAYLOCK: It would be great.
14 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I had a couple of
15 questions for you, sir.
16 I just recently got your 2008/200- -- it
17 was the 2007/2008 annual report that you sent to
18 the council members.
19 MR. BLAYLOCK: Uh-huh.
20 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And on page 9 in there,
21 it said that JTA was a State agency; is that
22 correct?
23 MR. BLAYLOCK: Yes, sir.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Also, I understand
25 that JTA has hired some lobbyists to help push
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
51
1 this issue through the City Council; is that
2 correct?
3 MR. BLAYLOCK: Yes, sir. We have people
4 assisting us in this matter.
5 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Who are those people?
6 MR. BLAYLOCK: We have the -- what is the
7 agency? I think Mr. Gilmore, Mr. Jim Gilmore is
8 the principal working with us.
9 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Anybody else?
10 MR. BLAYLOCK: Other than Michael Miller
11 that you-all --
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Well, he's not a
13 lobbyist. I think he's your employee, isn't
14 he?
15 MR. BLAYLOCK: He lobbies for us, but --
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I know, but he's an
17 employee. He doesn't count.
18 Okay. Thank you, sir.
19 And the e-mail from -- that I got from
20 Van Dyke Walker, who's your facilities manager;
21 is that correct?
22 MR. BLAYLOCK: Yes, sir, facilities.
23 MR. CRESCIMBENI: He sent an e-mail to me
24 on the 23rd of September. We had had some
25 discussions about shelters. He said that you
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1 had 312 on the street and 28 in storage that
2 were either damaged by auto accidents or were
3 requir- -- or were requiring refurbishment. Is
4 that about -- the total of 340, is that about --
5 MR. BLAYLOCK: I know it's somewhere
6 around -- I know they had about 30 that was in
7 for refurbishment.
8 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. And then my last
9 question, sir, was -- I was looking at this
10 handout that I know Mr. Miller, I guess, is
11 going to get to.
12 Has JTA had any conversations with any bus
13 shelter or outdoor advertising companies
14 specifically? And, if so, what companies have
15 you had discussions with?
16 MR. BLAYLOCK: Not that I'm aware of. I
17 can refer that to Michael Miller.
18 Mike, do you want to come up? Because I'm
19 not --
20 I have had conversations with other cities,
21 other transit properties in terms of their
22 program and, you know, how they manage their
23 program, but Michael --
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Right.
25 Well, I just -- I noticed the first picture
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1 in this handout was a Clear Channel shelter, and
2 I didn't know if we had had any discussions with
3 any particular companies or not over the process
4 of years that we've been dealing with this
5 issue.
6 (Mr. Miller approaches the podium.)
7 MR. MILLER: Through the Chair,
8 Mr. Crescimbeni, we have not spoken to any
9 companies that act as vendors for advertising
10 shelters. Our discussions have been with other
11 cities, as Mr. Blaylock has referred to. I have
12 looked at a number of the contracts with other
13 cities that have programs like this just to see
14 how the contracts are written.
15 And we did have a session -- in fact, the
16 Planning Department was part of this and so was
17 the JEDC -- as we started looking for potential
18 designs for the downtown area of shelters, but
19 that was with shelter manufacturing companies
20 and not companies who participate in the project
21 that we're proposing.
22 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Do you know what
23 companies do participate in shelter -- providing
24 shelters and then recruiting the advertising for
25 them?
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1 MR. MILLER: Absolutely, sir.
2 In our discussions with other cities and
3 the contracts I've reviewed, I've seen them with
4 various companies.
5 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Can you name any?
6 MR. MILLER: Clear Channel is one, Lamar
7 does it. There's one called Southern Media,
8 which I'm not too familiar with. It's a rather
9 small company, but as I understand --
10 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Is that the one --
11 MR. MILLER: As I understand it, there are
12 approximately 25 companies nationally who
13 participate in this program in one way or
14 another.
15 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Thank you.
16 MR. MILLER: They don't all participate in
17 the same level.
18 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you very much.
19 MR. MILLER: You're welcome.
20 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: All righty. If there's no
22 other speakers -- or no other questions for
23 Mr. Blaylock, we -- whoever wants to come up
24 next, Mr. Miller or Mr. Cohen.
25 (Mr. Miller approaches the podium.)
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1 MR. MILLER: Basically, I just wanted to
2 make myself available for any other questions
3 that may come up. But I did want to, if I
4 could, revert back for just one moment to the
5 question about 50 shelters that was asked of
6 Mr. Blaylock.
7 In most cases that I've investigated and
8 what we hope to be able to do is set 50 as a
9 minimum number per year that would be erected.
10 There are some companies who have exceeded that
11 number, just as they have found enough demand
12 for it and also enough revenue to be able to do
13 it, but the 50 is a minimum that we'd like to be
14 able to put up each year.
15 Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller, did you give
17 your name and address for the record? I don't
18 think you did.
19 MR. MILLER: Mike Miller, JTA, 100 North
20 Myrtle, Jacksonville.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
22 All right. Mr. Cohen.
23 (Mr. Cohen approaches the podium.)
24 MR. COHEN: David Cohen, Edwards Cohen,
25 6 East Bay Street, Suite 500.
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1 I'm general counsel to the Jacksonville
2 Transportation Authority, and I'm available for
3 your questions today.
4 Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any questions
6 for Mr. Cohen?
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing none,
9 thank you, sir.
10 All right. Next we have Mr. Arpen.
11 (Mr. Arpen approaches the podium.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Nice tie, Mr. Arpen.
13 MR. ARPEN: Thank you.
14 I wasn't sure if I'd win votes or lose them
15 by wearing it.
16 Thanks. Good to be back.
17 Tracey Arpen, 3489 Loretto Road,
18 Jacksonville, Florida.
19 I'm here to speak in opposition to
20 ordinance 2009-401, not because I don't believe
21 we need bus shelters. I mean, everybody
22 recognizes we need more bus shelters, and I
23 applaud the efforts of Councilmember Jones to
24 try and reach that goal and also the efforts
25 that Mike Blaylock has made since his arrival at
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1 JTA, as chairman, to -- or CEO, to dramatically
2 increase the number of bus shelters.
3 I think the issue is not should we have
4 more bus shelters, but at what cost and how will
5 they be delivered. And I'm concerned about the
6 cost. It may not necessarily be a financial
7 cost, although I'll get to those as well.
8 What I'm concerned about is -- as a cost of
9 the bill you have before you, is the very
10 undoing of the billboard referendum that passed
11 overwhelmingly by voters. The public has spoken
12 on that issue too pretty loudly. We collected
13 18,000 signatures in a single day to put the
14 issue on the ballot. It passed in a landslide.
15 There is a case pending before the Supreme
16 Court now -- or seeking an appeal before the
17 Supreme Court, which, if it plays out the way it
18 did in the trial court in Los Angeles, could be
19 the very undoing of the billboard referendum,
20 which has resulted in the removal of over 1,000
21 billboard faces in the city of Jacksonville, has
22 been a prohibition on new billboard faces since
23 1987.
24 And my concern arises out of a case that
25 came out of the City of Los Angeles, which also
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1 had a billboard ban, which also allowed
2 advertising on bus shelters within the
3 right-of-way. The trial court said that by
4 doing that, you undermined your rationale for
5 banning billboards -- mainly traffic safety and
6 aesthetics -- you could not prohibit off-site
7 advertising off of the right-of-way while at the
8 same time allowing it on the right-of-way.
9 That case is still pending. We don't know
10 what the outcome will be, but it could also -- I
11 would point out, it could also affect portions
12 of the on-site sign ordinance as well,
13 particularly the prohibition on signs in the
14 right-of-way. Again, how can you prohibit signs
15 in the right-of-way and allow them for bus
16 shelters?
17 The same thing with the 10-foot setback.
18 You'll hear talk about the severability
19 clause perhaps. There's no guarantee that might
20 be accepted by a court. Even if it is, you've
21 got the issue of the shelters that may have gone
22 up in the meantime and what their rights are,
23 what the cost may be of breaching the contract.
24 You've also got a potential lawsuit or
25 probable lawsuit against the City as well as JTA
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1 by billboard companies if this passes. The City
2 will incur hundreds of thousands, if not
3 millions, of dollars in legal fees and expenses
4 in such a lawsuit and should be indemnified for
5 those.
6 I'll be glad to answer any questions.
7 Finally, the concern -- it just -- this is
8 bad policy. It's a step backwards in cleaning
9 up visual pollution. These are not anything
10 other than illuminated billboard faces within
11 the right-of-way.
12 Thank you, and I'll be glad to answer any
13 questions.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Arpen, I believe
15 Mr. Crescimbeni has a question for you.
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 Through the Chair to Mr. Arpen. Mr. Arpen,
18 at the beginning of the meeting, when Mr. Kelly
19 was giving his description, he read from the
20 charter amendment.
21 Did you have anything to do with the
22 construction of that charter amendment?
23 MR. ARPEN: Actually, Bill Brinton and I
24 were the authors of it. And Bill Brinton and I
25 were the two that argued the case successfully
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1 before the Florida Supreme Court defending the
2 billboard charter amendment. I, on behalf of
3 the City, and Bill Brinton, on behalf of
4 Cap Signs, so I do have some familiarity.
5 The concern is not that the sign is smaller
6 than the amount of square footage allowed to
7 trigger the charter. The charter -- the concern
8 is, as I mentioned, the rationale of the
9 Los Angeles case, that the very adoption of this
10 ordinance undermines the rationale for the
11 charter being on the books at all.
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. I wanted you to
13 just address Mr. Kelly's comments because it
14 sounded like he was giving us a legal opinion.
15 And I'm not sure if he's familiar with the
16 Metro Lights case or not, but -- I mean, can you
17 respond to his comments about that specific part
18 that he told us? I mean, how -- do you disagree
19 or agree with him, where he read from the
20 language talking about signs less than 24 square
21 feet.
22 MR. ARPEN: Well, as I read what he -- or
23 understood what he was saying, I took him to be
24 saying that there's no problem with the charter
25 because it's smaller than the allowed signs
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1 under the charter. And that's true. It's not
2 in violation of the charter by having a
3 24-square-foot off-site sign. That's not the
4 problem.
5 The problem is that adopting a bill that
6 allows off-site advertising in the right-of-way
7 will be used to try and defeat the rationale for
8 the charter amendment being on the books.
9 We'll wait for the result and the City
10 being flooded with billboard permit applications
11 and no basis to deny them while the billboard
12 ban is struck down before it could be reenacted.
13 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Arpen.
14 Through the Chair, again, if -- in the
15 Metro Lights case versus the City of
16 Los Angeles, the California District Court did
17 strike down the entire sign code for
18 Los Angeles.
19 If that were to happen here, what could
20 happen in the interim of a sign code being
21 struck down? I mean, could billboards be
22 erected in Duval County if our whole sign code
23 and charter amendment were thrown out?
24 MR. ARPEN: Well, I would anticipate what
25 would happen would be, as I said, the City would
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1 be flooded with permit applications to erect
2 billboards on city streets at a time when
3 there's no law on the books to prohibit it
4 because that law has been struck down.
5 Now, the City can go back and reenact it
6 perhaps by throwing out the part of the bill
7 that allows bus shelter advertising. But even
8 if they do that, you've got the billboards that
9 have gone up in the meantime. And at the time
10 the charter amendment passed, you could require
11 removal of billboards along non- -- that were
12 not on federal aid or interstate highways
13 without paying cash compensation by using
14 amortization.
15 The problem is the state law has changed in
16 the meantime. To remove any billboard that goes
17 up in the meantime would require cash
18 compensation to the owner. So if new billboards
19 go up, the City would have to pay hundreds of
20 thousands of dollars per billboard to get those
21 billboards back down again.
22 MR. CRESCIMBENI: As compared to in '87
23 when they were just amortizing over a five-year
24 period.
25 MR. ARPEN: That's correct.
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1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And in the absence of a
2 sign code, if the sign code were to be struck
3 down, those billboards, and any sign, for that
4 matter, could go up anywhere, correct? They
5 could go up in historic districts? They could
6 go up in -- is that correct?
7 MR. ARPEN: I would think that would be the
8 case because what the court does is they say
9 your rationale for adopting it, traffic safety
10 and aesthetics, is invalid by allowing them
11 within the right-of-way if they follow the
12 rationale of the Los Angeles trial court.
13 And so, if anything, that is -- it would
14 prohibit off-site advertising anywhere would be
15 struck down and there would be no law on the
16 books at the time to prohibit off-site
17 advertising anywhere.
18 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. And one final
19 question, Mr. Arpen. I've been working on this
20 issue for years before returning to the City
21 Council and one of the common arguments I've
22 heard over the years is signs at the stadium,
23 signs at the stadium, signs at the stadium,
24 we've got signs at the stadium.
25 Can you talk to me a little about how those
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1 compare to what this ordinance would provide
2 for?
3 MR. ARPEN: And I do know that that was
4 something Mr. Kelly raised, the fact that that
5 language, when we permitted the shelter -- the
6 signage at the stadium also had a severability
7 clause in it, which I drafted as I drafted the
8 severability clause that's before you tonight
9 before I left the City.
10 But I think -- I think that's apples and
11 oranges. You know, there's one thing in terms
12 of putting a sign within the right-of-way while
13 prohibiting it, you know, just off the
14 right-of-way, which is what the court had a
15 problem with, the Los Angeles case.
16 It's a completely different thing, I think,
17 where you've got the signs down at the stadium,
18 which are set back hundreds of feet from the
19 right-of-way. I don't think that provides the
20 same vehicle for challenge to the billboard ban
21 that the sign in the right-of-way does.
22 And then the other problem too is if it did
23 and if that were struck down, you know, from a
24 practical standpoint, there aren't a whole lot
25 of places to put up signs at the stadium.
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1 But I think the main thing is that it's
2 apples and oranges. One, putting signs in the
3 right-of-way, which undermines the rationale for
4 banning them elsewhere as opposed to stadium
5 signs, which aren't near the right-of-way at
6 all.
7 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Arpen.
8 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Arpen, hold
10 on. Mr. Jones has a question for you.
11 MR. JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 Through the Chair to Mr. Arpen.
13 The first question, Mr. Arpen, Orlando --
14 does Orlando have a sign ordinance too?
15 MR. ARPEN: They do. I don't know that
16 they have an off-site billboard ban, but they
17 have an on-site sign ordinance, as most cities
18 do.
19 MR. JONES: And to the best of your
20 knowledge, has that sign ordinance been
21 overturned or challenged in Orlando?
22 MR. ARPEN: I don't know -- I don't know
23 that it has been.
24 MR. JONES: Okay.
25 MR. ARPEN: But, again, it's that -- I
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1 don't know whether they -- I don't believe
2 Orlando is one of the places -- in fact, if you
3 go to Orlando, you can see it's not one of the
4 cities that has banned -- has banned
5 billboards. They continue to go up in the city
6 of Orlando.
7 So, you know, anybody who has been down
8 there -- apparently they don't have a billboard
9 ban in Orlando, so there's not anything that the
10 billboard companies would try and have thrown
11 out.
12 MR. JONES: By definition, what we're
13 proposing is not a billboard, is it?
14 MR. ARPEN: No. But the problem is that
15 what we're proposing gives the billboard
16 companies a way to go to court and try and have
17 the billboard ban that's been in place for
18 almost 25 years thrown out so that there would
19 be a means to have new billboards erected in the
20 city for the first time since 1987.
21 MR. JONES: Okay. The -- I think it's the
22 Eleventh Circuit Court opinion that you referred
23 to, Metro Lights?
24 MR. ARPEN: Actually, that was the Ninth
25 Circuit.
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1 MR. JONES: Ninth Circuit.
2 MR. ARPEN: It was the appellate court
3 which reversed it. The billboard company has
4 appealed to the Supreme Court. The request for
5 discretionary review by the Supreme Court is
6 still pending. It was not in the number of
7 cases that the court just accepted jurisdiction
8 on yesterday because there was an extended
9 briefing schedule to give the court as to
10 whether or not they would take the case. So we
11 probably won't know for another couple of months
12 whether they're even going to take the case.
13 And if we do, we'd know probably by next summer
14 what the outcome is.
15 What could be even worse is, if they don't
16 take the case, then the law is up in the air and
17 we don't know, you know, what the law is.
18 There's nothing binding on our circuit and it
19 could go either way on the issue.
20 MR. JONES: I thought our circuit, other
21 circuits would follow the lead of the --
22 whatever the circuit recommended in California.
23 MR. ARPEN: They aren't obliged to. In
24 other words, it's binding on all of the district
25 courts within that circuit.
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1 It's something that can be argued as
2 persuasive or authority in argument in other
3 circuits, like the Eleventh Circuit we're in,
4 but it's in no way binding upon the Eleventh
5 Circuit to follow it.
6 MR. JONES: The Los Angeles case allowed
7 for signage on not just bus shelters, did it
8 not?
9 MR. ARPEN: That's correct.
10 MR. JONES: It included all street
11 furniture --
12 MR. ARPEN: Street furniture.
13 MR. JONES: -- which was the garbage cans,
14 the benches, everything. Our bill is limited
15 just to the bus shelters.
16 MR. ARPEN: That's correct.
17 I don't think the court in the Metro Lights
18 case was as concerned about what the signs were
19 being placed on -- be it bus shelters, garbage
20 cans, kiosks or whatever -- as the fact that
21 they were being placed within the right-of-way,
22 closer to the cars as opposed to billboards.
23 When the billboards were banned, based on
24 traffic safety and aesthetics, I think the court
25 was concerned about what you were putting in the
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1 right-of-way, not what piece of furniture or
2 appliance you were putting it on.
3 MR. JONES: Okay. But in the end, the
4 Ninth Circuit in that area did uphold that
5 particular bill?
6 MR. ARPEN: That's correct.
7 MR. JONES: Okay. Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Arpen.
9 Anybody else have a question for
10 Mr. Arpen?
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Louise De Spain, and after
13 that will be Danny Ferreira.
14 (Ms. De Spain approaches the podium.)
15 MS. DE SPAIN: Louise De Spain, 1851 North
16 Liberty Street.
17 I came here specifically to represent
18 Springfield and SPAR -- I'm the executive
19 director of SPAR -- to ask that the historic
20 districts -- both Riverside, Avondale and
21 Springfield -- be exempt from this ordinance.
22 But also, the letter that you received in
23 your packet from the Historic Preservation
24 Commission does ask that the entire overlay area
25 be exempt, and it sounds like that's going to
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1 happen.
2 And I especially want to thank Dr. Gaffney
3 for helping us on that, which he does
4 frequently. And I'd also like to thank JTA for
5 taking that into consideration.
6 Thank you very much.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. De Spain.
8 Mr. Ferreira.
9 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Danny Ferreira, 14838
11 Edwards Creek Road North in Jacksonville.
12 I was so pleased to have Mr. Tracey Arpen
13 explain things so thorough. And my contentions
14 opposing this ordinance change has always been
15 predicated on the fact that we're governed by a
16 representative government, and the people in '87
17 overwhelmingly indicated that they didn't want
18 the signs of any -- any manner placed on the
19 public right-of-way.
20 It's my feeling that government and sign
21 companies are not compatible. I think this is
22 what the public or the taxpayers dislike most,
23 to find that -- something that makes good
24 principle government and clean environment
25 overridden by special privileged companies that
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1 lobby.
2 I believe it's wrong for ten
3 representatives of Council here to have signed
4 an agreement with an ordinance change to deny
5 what was established by the majority of the
6 people in this city had voted. And the Planning
7 Committee in 2005 and in 2008 had denied this
8 change.
9 Signs are not visually attractive. They're
10 a visual pollution that take away from the view
11 from what can be attractive.
12 Having seen CNN news the other night,
13 homeless in Instanbul, sleeping in sign-covered
14 shelters advertising perfume and Rolex watches.
15 And you can imagine the appearance of these
16 attractive people with the perfume ad and the
17 Rolex watches.
18 How is this good government? What's next?
19 The playgrounds? The boat ramps? Public
20 buildings? Is it not -- it's not anti-business
21 that I oppose the sign company using our public
22 right-of-way. It's just wrong to represent --
23 to represent public property like this.
24 How can I explain this to my grandchildren,
25 why signs are allowed to be placed along public
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1