1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, November 20,
7 2007, commencing at 5:05 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 ART SHAD, Acting Chair.
JACK WEBB, Committee Member.
14 BILL BISHOP, Appointed Committee Member.
RAY HOLT, Appointed Committee Member.
15
16 ALSO PRESENT:
17
JOHNNY GAFFNEY, City Council Member.
18 JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
MARGO MOEHRING, Planning and Development Dept.
19 KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
STEVE SMITH, Planning and Development Dept.
20 FOLKS HUXFORD, Planning and Development Dept.
21 JASON TEAL, Office of General Counsel.
JESSICA STEPHENS, Legislative Assistant.
22 MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
23 - - -
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 November 20, 2007 5:05 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon. We'll go
5 ahead and get started.
6 We'll call to order the Land Use and Zoning
7 Committee, the
8 Tuesday, November 20th, a few minutes after
9 5:00.
10 I'm Art Shad, your Chair, filling in for
11 Mr. Yarborough, who was filling in for
12 Mr. Corrigan.
13 We have a number of excusals:
14 Mr. Corrigan, Mr. Yarborough, Mr. Clark,
15 Ms. Jones, and Ms. Lee.
16 Appointed to serve today on Land Use and
17 Zoning is Councilmember Bishop and
18 Councilmember Holt. I will be serving as Chair
19 and Councilmember Webb will be serving as
20 Vice Chair.
21 We will get started. We're going to take a
22 couple of items out of order. First, if we
23 could go -- is Ms. Barnes here, the school board
24 member?
25 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
3
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We will wait on that
2 item.
3 We'll go -- is Mr. Gaffney here?
4 DR. GAFFNEY: (Indicating.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Welcome.
6 I'd like to also acknowledge Councilmember
7 Gaffney is with us as well.
8 Sir, you have a couple of items?
9 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: On page 8 -- if we can turn
11 to item 24 on page 8.
12 Item 24, 2007-1046. We have a public
13 hearing, so let's -- before we have the public
14 hearing -- Mr. Gaffney, has there been -- I see
15 a substitute here in front of us. Can someone
16 speak to that so that the people who are going
17 to speak --
18 DR. GAFFNEY: Jason will speak to that.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
20 MS. ELLER: And as Mr. Teal arrives, the
21 requested action to the committee is substitute
22 and rerefer with additional public hearings.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I'll make sure that's
24 clear.
25 So where are we at, Mr. Teal?
Diane M.
Tropia,
4
1 MR. TEAL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 What the substitute will do is it will, in
3 essence, require the establishment of a list of
4 all of the facilities in
5 going to be subject to this requirement.
6 So what it does is it requires within
7 90 days of the effective date of the ordinance
8 all of the special use facilities in
9 have to submit to the Planning Department
10 director the information that shows the accurate
11 square footage of the facility's living space as
12 it existed on December 21st, 2000.
13 It requires them to show licensure or
14 permit information from the relevant State
15 agency that shows a continuous operation of the
16 facility since prior to December 21st, 2000.
17 It requires a statement or an affidavit or
18 permit information that shows the number of
19 residents that were legally entitled to occupy
20 the property -- or the facility on or before
21 December 21st, 2000.
22 It also requires the facility to identify
23 the number of people that they consider to be
24 staff members, and what that will do is --
25 because the
Diane M.
Tropia,
5
1 enacted on December 21st, 2000 -- establish that
2 there shall be no new special use facilities.
3 So we are using that date as the deadline
4 for how many of these facilities were in
5 existence, what size were they, how many
6 residents were they legally entitled to have
7 within those facilities.
8 So what that will do is that will establish
9 the laundry list of the facilities, and then it
10 will, in essence, make those legally
11 nonconforming uses. So it will not have a
12 square footage requirement. It won't have any
13 of those requirements.
14 It will keep the ones pertaining to
15 chain-link fences and -- that were already in
16 there because those were a different issue, but
17 basically as we listened to both sides at the
18 public hearings -- and Dr. Gaffney can talk
19 about what we did with both sides to come up
20 with this compromise, but what it will do is it
21 will allow those that are in existence or were
22 in existence legally on December 21st, 2000, to
23 continue in existence until such time as they're
24 legal nonconforming status changes.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: That's the substitute that's
Diane M.
Tropia,
6
1 in front of us.
2 Councilmember Gaffney.
3 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
4 Yes. I just want to give a synopsis of how
5 we arrived to the situation.
6 We met with both parties, both sides, and
7 everybody really wants this to be a very
8 amicable and expeditious matter, get it
9 resolved. And we both sat down -- both sides
10 sat down and we came to an agreement, and
11 basically it pretty much grandfathers the groups
12 in that were there in 2000, which that's
13 originally what we were trying to accomplish
14 anyway.
15 So both groups has agreed to a compromise
16 that -- that's something that's workable for
17 both sides.
18 Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Great. We have public a
20 hearing first, so let me announce that.
21 I have a number of speakers here. We are
22 going to open and continue this public hearing.
23 So you're welcome to speak today, but we are
24 going to have another public hearing in two
25 weeks and you may want to digest the substitute
Diane M.
Tropia,
7
1 before us -- go ahead.
2 MS. ELLER: I apologize not being clear.
3 The public -- the requested action is to
4 open and close and sub and rerefer, and then
5 we'd have to readvertise new dates, and it would
6 be after two weeks. It would have to be in
7 January in order to meet the advertising
8 deadlines for the new substance of the bill.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Great. I stand corrected.
10 So we are going to close the public
11 hearing. It will take a couple of weeks to
12 advertise it, and then approximately four or six
13 weeks from now we will start over again with
14 another series of public hearings in front of
15 the Land Use and Zoning -- as well as in front
16 of full council, correct?
17 MS. ELLER: Correct.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So that being said, I
19 will call the speaker cards. If you don't wish
20 to speak at this time, you could just
21 acknowledge that or come up and speak now.
22 Michael Trautmann.
23 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: So I'll open the public
25 hearing.
Diane M.
Tropia,
8
1 Welcome.
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 My name is Michael Trautmann. I live at
5 I've been a resident for about 18 years and
6 have been developing in
7 20 years.
8 I'm rising in -- trying to work out
9 basically a compromise on this issue, which
10 Dr. Gaffney just spoke about. We've gotten to
11 the point, I think, where we can probably work
12 something out.
13 There's several issues that are outstanding
14 and I think that the -- that the City Council
15 should be made aware of before they make their
16 determination.
17 I've got some information that I just want
18 to share with the council and then just submit
19 it, and you can review it at your convenience,
20 and I'll just briefly go over each of those
21 items.
22 There's a State requirement that the
23 Florida Agency for Health Care Administration
24 requires. It is a form that is to be filled out
25 by the City's local zoning ordinance -- or local
Diane M.
Tropia,
9
1 zoning authorities, which states a specific
2 number of capacity -- I could read it to you.
3 To make a long story short, the capacity
4 has to be stated for each facility that's
5 located in a residential area. That capacity
6 cannot be exceeded. It's an ACHA form, and we
7 can't find it for this facility -- either one of
8 these facilities. And it's required by the
9 State of
10 I'd like to submit that for your
11 consideration.
12 Item number 2, regarding overcrowding in a
13 congregate living facility. Tom Garwood
14 (phonetic) of
15 Services suggested that you may visit their
16 staff in determining what might be a number
17 which would work whereby you would not be
18 detrimental to the recovery of the individuals
19 in the facility.
20 Otherwise -- you know, putting 25 people in
21 a 2,500-square-foot situation may be detrimental
22 to their recovery and 14 or 15 may be a lot more
23 desirable. And I'd invite you to discuss that
24 with
25 they -- they felt that that was an overcrowding
Diane M.
Tropia,
10
1 type situation as well.
2 Another issue that came before the
3 community as we tried to resolve this thing is
4 that they made a case that they could not
5 economically survive. So what I did was got
6 some scenarios that do show the per diem
7 allocations that are an average for statewide
8 facilities, which runs about $18 a day, and it
9 shows the occupancy based at 14, $18 per day,
10 yielding a gross income somewhere around $84,672
11 a year. You increase that to 25 occupants per
12 day at $18 per diem, and that increases the
13 gross income of the facility to $151,200 per day
14 [sic].
15 A traditional developer next door or down
16 the street that's renovated an existing
17 four-bedroom, 2,500-square-foot facility grosses
18 approximately 24 -- or $20,400 per year. So
19 there's a substantial amount of operating income
20 in these types of facilities.
21 So I'd like to submit that for your
22 consideration.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
24 Your time has expired.
25 MR. TRAUTMANN: Oh, okay.
Diane M.
Tropia,
11
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for coming down.
2 Joe Markusic.
3 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Welcome.
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Joe Markusic, 7027 Alpine
6 Street.
7 I'm here on behalf of Barbara and Grace,
8 Incorporated, one of the houses that's being
9 talked about.
10 We've been working with Dr. Gaffney -- even
11 though I've been calling Mr. Teal a lot, he's
12 just easier to get ahold of -- about this
13 issue. And we are very supportive of this
14 compromise because it allows us to exist while
15 still protecting the neighborhood, and that's
16 really what this is all about. We want to
17 protect the neighborhood and want the right --
18 our rights to exist in this neighborhood to
19 continue.
20 I have sent a message to Mr. Teal that we
21 found out there are indeed maximum numbers
22 attached to the permit issued by the Department
23 of State. So that's one issue that we've been
24 working with him to resolve, and we have done
25 it.
Diane M.
Tropia,
12
1 As far as any monetary thing, it's a
2 business and -- you know, we really can't get
3 into it, but the bottom line is it's -- I wish
4 it was as profitable as they say.
5 Tonight's meeting isn't the time to really
6 discuss this. We're going to have another -- a
7 lot of opportunities, so I'm going to not take
8 any more of your time, and thank you for your
9 consideration.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for coming down.
11 Phil Neary, followed by Tom Stephens.
12 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman, members of
14 the committee, thank you for hearing me.
15 My name is Phil Neary. I'm a board member
16 of Home Away From Home. I'm a
17 resident, homeowner -- also a homeowner there
18 for 25 years.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Could we get your address?
20 MR. NEARY: I'm sorry?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Could we get your address as
22 well?
23 MR. NEARY:
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Great.
25 MR. NEARY: I've also restored many homes
Diane M.
Tropia,
13
1 in the neighborhood, and I was the director of
2 the Historic
3 the
4 accomplished.
5 I'm asking that you approve the substituted
6 amendment, -1046, because with the help of
7 Councilman Gaffney I believe this substitution
8 will accomplish our goal of allowing the halfway
9 houses in
10 Overall, we believe this substitution gives
11 the halfway houses the protection they deserve,
12 it gives the community the opportunity to give
13 themselves the protection they seem to want,
14 while also allowing them to meet their statement
15 if they do not want to put halfway houses out of
16 business.
17 Now, I was under the impression that we
18 reached a compromise on both sides. Now I'm
19 hearing a little something different, that
20 there's too many people here and we're making a
21 lot of money. And I don't know where all that's
22 coming from, but I know that we are allowed so
23 many people at our location by the Department of
24 Business and Professional Regulation.
25 The other three houses are allowed so many
Diane M.
Tropia,
14
1 people by the Department of Health. I say the
2 Department of Health. So I don't think there
3 needs to be a worry that some of these
4 organizations have been operating for 40 years
5 and with -- helping just hundreds, thousands of
6 people. So I don't think that's something that
7 we need to bring back up, and I hope that --
8 with all the help that Dr. Gaffney has given us,
9 that we can move forward on this.
10 Thank you very much.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
12 Tom Stephens, followed by Kathy Taylor.
13 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Tom Stephens.
15 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Kathy Taylor,
17 followed by Allan Clotworthy.
18 Kathy Taylor.
19 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Allan Clotworthy.
21 (Mr. Neary approaches the podium.)
22 MR. NEARY: If I could, Mr. Chairman.
23 I have about 20 more cards here of people
24 that were willing to speak tonight but are not
25 because they will wait for the next meeting.
Diane M.
Tropia,
15
1 THE CHAIRMAN: So don't call those?
2 MR. NEARY: (Nods head.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Allan.
4 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clotworthy.
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Allan
7 Clotworthy. I reside at
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Welcome.
9 MR. CLOTWORTHY: Thank you for hearing us
10 tonight.
11 I've been in the health care field for
12 32 years. I just retired. I guess -- I worked
13 for the State at Macclenny at the Northeast
14
15 out there. And, you know, over the years, it
16 was -- Macclenny was originally packed in, and
17 the object was to serve as many as you possibly
18 can and crowd them in. Over the years, they
19 found this is not true. It's nice to say that
20 you can serve all the people, but to what
21 conclusion is it when you pack them in?
22 There are certain types that -- if you put
23 four people in a room, you've got a problem.
24 They have no space. There's no room for them to
25 develop anything, you know.
Diane M.
Tropia,
16
1 And we're talking about getting this thing
2 down -- I think the original (inaudible) we're
3 talking about said it was 100 square, and --
4 which means at 2,500 square, you can put in
5 25 people for your room, which is going to be
6 one of maybe five. You know, you can end up
7 with four and a half people to a room.
8 It's not really conducive to good mental
9 health, and we are talking about people that do
10 have problems. We have, you know, alcohol abuse
11 and we have drug abuse. These I've worked at in
12 mental, clinical settings, and then we've worked
13 on them with -- restoring houses down in
14
15 now, and we had them working for us then.
16 But, you know, the element is to try to get
17 you to where you can sustain a -- a life. You
18 pack them in, your life is more or less really
19 condensed.
20 Thank you very much.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for coming down.
22 Pat LaMountain, follow by Debbie Thompson.
23 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Pat LaMountain, 1740
Diane M.
Tropia,
17